“What about Purgatory?”

Steve Brown:
What about Purgatory? The answer to that and other questions on Key Life.

Matthew Porter:
If you think laughter isn’t spiritual or that faithfulness to God means conformity to Christian stereotypes, then this program probably isn’t for you. But if you’re looking for honest, Biblical answers to honest questions, welcome to Key Life. Here’s our host, author and seminary professor Steve Brown, along with Pete Alwinson from ForgeBibleStudy.com

Steve Brown:
Thanks Matthew. Hi Pete.

Pete Alwinson:
Hey man. I would ski in there once out in Utah. It’s a great, it was great.

Steve Brown:
You just don’t want to answer the question. I can tell.

Pete Alwinson:
When the time comes.

Steve Brown:
Where did you go skiing?

Pete Alwinson:
Well, there was, there was a place, I think it’s still open, called Purgatory, in Utah.

Steve Brown:
No kidding.

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah. Or South or Southern Colorado. Yeah.

Steve Brown:
I thought you were just going to say something that sounded like Purgatory or felt like it.

Pete Alwinson:
No, I’m not messing with you, or Mexico, it might be Northern. Anyway.

Steve Brown:
I’d like to go to that place, and ask them where it came from. That’s Pete Alwinson, by the way. And he comes in each Friday and we answer your questions and we love to get your questions. Oh, by the way, as I always telling you to go to ForgeTruth.com and check out the Forge Ministry, it is an incredible ministry making a difference in a lot of lives. And Pete, as I said, and as I interrupted myself, Pete comes in and we answer questions on Friday and we love to get your questions. You can send them to

Key Life Network

P.O. Box 5000

Maitland, Florida 32794

Key Life Canada
P.O. Box 28060
Waterloo, Ontario N2L 6J8

You can e-mail your question to [email protected]. I got the hiccups here, [email protected] or you can call us, 24 seven, 1-800-KEY-LIFE, record your question. And we sometimes put it on the air. And all of those places, you tell a joke about a parrot, you know what I wanted to say? Well, you know, tell that joke.

Pete Alwinson:
Oh man, you really, are you kidding me?

Steve Brown:
Yeah. Well, this lady comes by and

Pete Alwinson:
she walks to work every day, it goes by a pet store and this very expensive parrot said, Hey lady, she looks around, it’s a parrot talking to her. And she, he, she, he says you’re ugly and she’s angry and frustrated. And she walks by on the way home from work, same thing. Hey lady, she looks up, you’re ugly. On the way back the next day, she hadn’t slept the whole night. Hey lady, you’re ugly. She storms in there, grabs a manager by the lapel. He says that again, I’m going to ring his neck. On the way home from work, the parrot is still there. He says, Hey lady, she stops, looks, you know.

Steve Brown:
Well, what I was gonna say is, I was gonna ask you, if you can help us financially, to do that. But then I was going to say, you know, do help us if you can, if you can’t, we understand, do remember this ministry in your prayers. Pete, lead us in prayer, and we’ll get to these questions.

Pete Alwinson:
Alright. Let’s pray. Father, we thank you that we’re your children and Lord, it is so true that life just so often conspires against us. People think we’re ugly. People think we don’t measure up. Sometimes we know we don’t measure up. And so we come to you as your children and so grateful Jesus that you lived a perfect life and took the curse for our sins. So that, so that truly, you view us through your work as flawless, and what a joy it is to be, to be the sons and daughters of the most high God. We bow before you, we ask that you continue to work in our lives, and be with our leaders this weekend, our pastors and teachers and priests and worship directors, as they lead us deeper into grace. May we enjoy being your children this week-end? Now, we commit this time of Q&A, as we pray in Jesus’ strong name. Amen.

Steve Brown:
Amen. Alright, what about Purgatory? That’s the question, it’s an e-mail question. And, no, well it depends on what you mean by Purgatory?

Pete Alwinson:
I was gonna throw that back. Well, how do you think, it ought to be interpreted?

Steve Brown:
Well, you were saying something. We were talking about this question, that needs to be said. So say it, and I’ll agree with you.

Pete Alwinson:
Okay. Yeah. I think that some, some Christians have a view of after death, you go to a place, to do something with your sins. In other words, before you can go to heaven, you either have to be judged for your sins, or work off your sins in some way. If you go, if you go that route, you have to be purged of your sins. If you go that route, then it really takes away the power of the gospel.

Steve Brown:
And the Scripture says
It is appointed unto man once to die, and after that, the judgement.

Pete Alwinson:
That’s right.

Steve Brown:
There isn’t a, you have to be very careful when you go in that place.

Pete Alwinson:
That’s right.

Steve Brown:
Jeremy, who’s the producer of this program was pointing out the bosom of Abraham and Sheol, and a lot of different references in hell in the Scripture to death, but none of them suggest that you get another chance.

Pete Alwinson:
That’s right. That’s right. And for Christians, to make the gospel clear, it’s important that it’s this side of death, that that decision must be made.

Steve Brown:
That’s true.

Pete Alwinson:
I appreciate you pointing that out.

Steve Brown:
And C.S. Lewis talked about a Protestant Purgatory.

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah. What did he mean?

Steve Brown:
In I Corinthians 3, Paul references a fire. And everything’s going to be burned, the wood, the hay, the stubble is going to be burned up. And the only thing that’ll be left, is Jesus. And the Scripture does say, that God is a consuming fire. And so, if purging is what Purgatory is about, Lewis said, that’s it. There is a purging that takes place, before you got to heaven. And I, you know, I’m not going to even go there, cause I’m not even sure what Paul meant when he was talking about that. I get an idea of what he’s saying, that the foundation, Jesus Christ is what’s important. And we build all kinds of things on that foundation, that are not Christian, that violate the Scripture, and that’s all going to be burned up.

Pete Alwinson:
That’s right. And I think you’re right. That’s his point, is be careful how you build on the foundation of following Jesus.

Steve Brown:
What are the words, glory and glorify mean in the Bible? Do you have a good definition? I do.

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah. Give it.

Steve Brown:
I’m working with, it means a high estimation, admiration. I just finished writing a chapter on God’s glory in a book I’m working on, and we sing to God be the glory. Thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory. There are all kinds of Christian songs, it just means a very, very bright light. And Jesus prayed for us that we would get the glory that he has and that we would be able to stand with him, finally. And see the glory that this is all in John’s, and the reason I know this, is because I was just working on it. I sound like I’m really smart, but I’m not. I had to look, but in John 17, Jesus prays for us. And that’s one of the main things that he talks about. So if you’re a Christian, you’re supposed to be glorious. You’re supposed to have God’s glory. You’re, when we say to a person, boy, did you shine? Glory means, and I think this is a wonderful definition, Wow.

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah.

Steve Brown:
And that’s what we see in Jesus.

Pete Alwinson:
Let your light shine. And the light is Jesus through us. Good.

Steve Brown:
Let me read you a really sad e-mail. I don’t know that I’m already a child of God. I want to be saved so badly. I want to be forgiven for my sins through Jesus’ perfect sacrifice for me. I want to be a new creation, but I’m not, what should I do?

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah. What is holding you back?

Steve Brown:
Yeah, it sounds to me like you’re already there, and you just don’t know it. You got it right. All you gotta say is, repeat what you’re ask in the question to Jesus, and say, could you do that for me? And he will say yes, because Paul said to the Corinthians.

All the promises of God find their yes in Jesus Christ.

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah. That’s right. So powerful. I just read a short description of the lady who wrote the old hymn Just As I Am. And she was wrestling with this very same issue.

Steve Brown:
Really?

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah. And so she talked to somebody and I don’t know how to come to him. And, and, and they said to her, just come as you are, just come as you are. And, and, and so that kept working on her. And, and then she did, she just came to Jesus and accepted him as her savior and Lord. And then later she wrote that hymn, when she was, cause she struggled often with the depression and discouragement.

Steve Brown:
I get that. Do you think sometimes that we make it harder than it is to come to Christ?

Pete Alwinson:
I do.

Steve Brown:
Put all kinds of things that, you know, you gotta go to church, you gotta be good, you gotta read the Bible, you gotta do this. There isn’t anything, you gotta say, God, I’m in trouble here and I made a mess out of it. Please do something. That’s all it requires.

Pete Alwinson:
That’s right. And that’s exactly why he came, because he knew that we couldn’t help ourselves.

Steve Brown:
Yeah. Exactly.

Pete Alwinson:
We just couldn’t. And that’s what mercy and grace are all about.

Steve Brown:
And so we would say to this person, go tell him what you just told us. And then, write us again, and we’ll wish you happy birthday. And if anybody tells you, or you tell yourself that you don’t belong to him, that you’re not a Christian, you tell him to go to Heaven, and to leave you alone, because they don’t know what they’re talking about.

Pete Alwinson:
There you go.

Steve Brown:
Alright, let’s see, can an unsaved, this is interesting. Can an unsaved person lead someone to a saving knowledge of Christ, and that person be saved?

Pete Alwinson:
God does amazing things.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ.

That’s what Romans 10:17 says. And so yeah, if an unbeliever did that, why not?

Steve Brown:
And Paul said, you know, some of them preach out of selfishness and some of them out of the right motives and I don’t care as long as Christ is preached. So truth, I mean, God, one time used Balaam’s donkey, I guess he can use an unsaved person

Pete Alwinson:
Amazing, isn’t it?

Steve Brown:
to preach the gospel to somebody. Does God love everybody, but does he love only the elect?

Pete Alwinson:
Well, big subject.

Steve Brown:
God, so loved the world. You know, I think you gotta be careful here, a lot of our reformed and maybe you, a lot of our Presbyterian reformed brothers are very clear and they interpret Scripture that have a universal love of God for human being is not his will that any should perish. They sometimes say, well, that’s talking about, it’s not his will that any of the elect should perish. And I got a problem with that, I say, yeah, he’s a God who is love. And he doesn’t just love the elect. He loves. He loves.

Pete Alwinson:
He does. And you can’t deny that in Scripture, and it is a tension point, but the word election is in Scripture.

Steve Brown:
Oh, it’s very clear in Scripture.

Pete Alwinson:
So, I think that’s the one thing we have to kind of give to the Lord, that he is a God of love and he’s a God of salvation.

Steve Brown:
Got to go. Key Life is a listener supported production of Key Life Network.